Post by asunay on Sept 7, 2015 21:57:40 GMT
Hey guys,
Just here to leave my final amends and make sure we can say our goodbyes without hard feelings, at the very least from my side, as i can not impact the way you think.
For those of you that don't know yet, I had a bit of a falling out with a couple of the active raiding members including one of the officers from the raiding team. After a rough day and some stuff i decided not to take, or have to take really,
I decided that enough was enough, and I left the guild. I apologize if this might have caused any big disturbances during the raid.
I joined Cry havoc as one of the earlier members after the reformation, at least I believe so since my application is at the bottem of the application forum. I was looking for a guild that wouldn't fall apart after a single patch of raiding, that wanted to take things seriously and raid to the best of their abilities while keeping the game relaxed and fun; In your own words, raiding seriously and aiming to surpass others, while playing less. I found that Cry Havoc matched the kind of raid i was looking for and decided to apply, and what did you know they were actually interested in having me.
We raged through the normal and early heroic content and everyone was looking motivated and happy, people were coming well prepared, as well prepared as you have to be for such content, and things were coming along smoothly. I guess nice weather makes sailors forget they don't actually know each other when the wind wether is bad. The moment we started meeting we some kind of resistance came together with the arrival of summer vacation for a lot of people. The core roster left and pugs were the obvious solution in combination with new core raid members, ones i sadly had less of a good relation with, whos fault that was, well probably both parties are equally guilty, at least, that's how I see things. There are actually two members I want to give a shoutout, Wycorena and Bojjechan. The two of you are among the better raiders and yet also the nicer people i met during my time in WoW, which is quite a while really.
With one being gone for a month now, I had really only one person left that i felt could become a friend of mine, and this is where things went sour. Bojjechan decided to leave the guild because of the slower pace of progress we had managed to attain during the upper echelons of HFC HC, and he went to the Mythic progressing guild of his friends. Probably a good choice, because the man was a beast and he lifted, well maybe not us, but certainly the lower half of the raiders in our group, on his back more then once. Well I don't blame him, he was good and decided to push his experience and limits, as any good raiders should do in my opinion. I was there the evening he decided to leave, and i was convinced the way he handled things was correct, he was looking for officers to tell his story against and to say his goodbyes.
The result: He was rediculed, insulted, his alts were kicked without warning, the account he was online on was kicked while he was in the middle of a conversation, he was nothing short of humiliated by the people he helped to grow and progress. The reason: The asshole didn't leave a proper forum post about his departure, and he backstabbed the guild by leaving, after getting boosted, the noob.
I decided to disagree with common and popular opinions about him, and to defend him. the discussion that followed was the start of me doubting my own future in the guild, not because you guys told me you didn't want me in the guild, but because of my main problem with one regular member in specific and part of the officers: The way you treat your fellow raiders, be they guild members or PUGs.
I was, and forgive me for the change in tone this post will have from here on, astonished by the way you handled this case, and the conversations in the guild chat about people that were being brought in to help the raid from the outside. PUG a sucks, kick him, PUG b doesn't want to listen after a wipe, kick him etc. etc. I was also surprised by the way you officers asked guild members to leave if their performance was subpar, rather then trying to help them, although i sadly have to admit that i wasn't in any position to help them either, considering i know very little about the majority off classes. But I guess you know more about raidleading then i do, and if the only way to achieve progress is to temporarily remove the underperforming members, then I guess that is up to the raidleaders to decide.
As said, the thing i hated most about a part of the members in this guild was their ability, no even their apparent willingness to name and shame pugs and underperformers, every PUG that got kicked was bad, every PUG that left was even worse.
Now I will refrain from naming people because it is what i hated most about these people, but i have a hard time believing the people i clashed with don't know who i'm talking about, the only remainder is whether they actually believe they did somethign wrong or not, but it is not my aim here to make them feel bad, I think, I hope.
Leaves me at the raid tonight, for the last couple of weeks I decided to be less of a talkative person, I didn't like where the guild was going in terms of management and attitude, in my personal experience the guild went from let's have fun and try hard, to let's be tryhard, which was not what i originally joined for, but once again, it's not my guild, and as such the officers have the last say in the way everything is organized. Like pretty much every raid the last month, the attendance was weak, and we had to pug a bunch of raiders. There the fun started again, not two failed attempts in and the first PUG was removed, with the usual trashtalk in guildchat, and like a recent trend, I decided it was better to not get involved. Now i don't wan't to sound like an idiot making up excuses, but i had a pretty long day today, so I was tired and had to do my best to attend the raid in time. I guess I wasn't prepared for three people telling me I was underperforming, seemingly seperate, in the span of about an hour. sadly, I never knew how to handle unconstructive critisim very well and a long day doesn't make it that much better, as you'll probably understand, i can assume every one of you has had a day where they just didn't have the ability to cope with crap people throw at them, or maybe you never experienced that, I don't particularly think it's all that important here anyways.
Here is where I feel really bad about what I did and said, and I can understand the way people took that in the wrong way. I really couldn't get past the fact that you guys shame PUGs in guildchat, and it's nothing short of shaming, believe me, and then continued on to send me whispers about how I should step it up, please do have the respect to throw such things into guild chat or even raid chat, I, and I hope neither are most of you, am not a buthurt little kid, and if I am a liability or a weakness in the raiding team, just say so, ask me to step down, just don't give me a lame whisper saying: ur bad, be better. Or so I thought was the worst idea, untill someone called me out in guildchat, and I made the exact mistake i named earlier.
He decided to ask me if i knew what i did wrong, nothing more than that. I, tired as i was, made a dumb joke about how i knew nothing anymore, and it was wrongly interpreted by the officers as me not trying anymore, although i was very vague in that regard. When i followed it up with some half assed joke after being the asked the same question again, which in my opinion was a rather dumb question, i got rather frustrated, wasn't it obvious I didn't know what I did wrong? I hadn't been to the previous two Mannoroth attempts, one because of a appointment, one because my internet decided to die out on me, and I had little to no idea about what you guys had discussed before me arriving at Mannoroth. I got under the impression I had a decent idea of what you guys wanted and how to play it out, apparently I was wrong.
An officer decided to kick me out of the raid, under i believe the same misconceptions I described earlier, and some pretty hatefull and let's be honest immature words fell. He had enough of my wanker attitude, I never showed any dedication and if I wasn't trying anyways, I cold and should just fuck off, that's what I understood of it at least. Well, I decided to tell him i disagreed, I was connected to what I felt was important for the health of the guild. I was told that my attitude was bad and that I never showed any kind of good attitude, which I pointed towards me disagreeing with the officers about earlier mentioned cases. When the discussion continued and the before mentioned regular member decided to continue his wellrounded criticism, voiced as, u have a shitty attitude, u don't even try, u come here and fail, You are just plain bad, I had about enough. Just before that the officers had told me that they don't agree with my way of addressing my problem with the guild. I say what I think in guildchat, they say what they think in guildchat, the main difference seems to be it's about people that can't defend themselves, either that or it's just not about them when they Name and Shame someone. I told the person that called me bad, that he was doing the exact same thing i was supposedly doing wrong, namely saying stuff I think out loud in guild chat, to which his simple response was: don't care, which ofcourse was ignored by the officers. I decided that i had my fill, I told him and the officers that they could do stuff their way, and that I didn't want anything to do with it, to which the final response was: good.
Long story short, I realize this was a bit of a rattle, maybe partially written to blow of some steam for a day with a bad ending. Forgive me my hastily written and unchecked english, I hope you can read this post without having any hard feelings, but above all I hope you can all read this and check with yourslef whether you have anything to improve on, and whether everyone is still on the same page as to what this guild i set out to achieve, it might just be me, but didn't enjoy a single raid over the last couple weeks. Naming and shaming, calling people names, being unable to accept criticism and reacting in the heat of the moment without thinking about what someone could have meant, nor considering the fact someone else might have a rough day or a bad mood, are all relatively solvable personal flaws, they are the flaws of someone who is growing up. Growing up means learning how to voice your opinion, being an adult means you learned not only how to voice your opinion, but also understanding how it gets across to others. I think it's a lesson both parties here still have to learn.
Wycorena, Bojjechan, thanks for the blast, it was fun while it lasted.
I'm done for now, what you do with this post, whether you delete it, write it in your diary or whatever else it is you like doing, is up to you, but above all I hope you keep having fun in the game, don't get pressure to perform, the pressure people put on you, useless dps meters or anythign really get in the way of the reason you have for playing the game, I lost my reason, I hope you can maintain yours.
Good luck and have fun,
A.
Just here to leave my final amends and make sure we can say our goodbyes without hard feelings, at the very least from my side, as i can not impact the way you think.
For those of you that don't know yet, I had a bit of a falling out with a couple of the active raiding members including one of the officers from the raiding team. After a rough day and some stuff i decided not to take, or have to take really,
I decided that enough was enough, and I left the guild. I apologize if this might have caused any big disturbances during the raid.
I joined Cry havoc as one of the earlier members after the reformation, at least I believe so since my application is at the bottem of the application forum. I was looking for a guild that wouldn't fall apart after a single patch of raiding, that wanted to take things seriously and raid to the best of their abilities while keeping the game relaxed and fun; In your own words, raiding seriously and aiming to surpass others, while playing less. I found that Cry Havoc matched the kind of raid i was looking for and decided to apply, and what did you know they were actually interested in having me.
We raged through the normal and early heroic content and everyone was looking motivated and happy, people were coming well prepared, as well prepared as you have to be for such content, and things were coming along smoothly. I guess nice weather makes sailors forget they don't actually know each other when the wind wether is bad. The moment we started meeting we some kind of resistance came together with the arrival of summer vacation for a lot of people. The core roster left and pugs were the obvious solution in combination with new core raid members, ones i sadly had less of a good relation with, whos fault that was, well probably both parties are equally guilty, at least, that's how I see things. There are actually two members I want to give a shoutout, Wycorena and Bojjechan. The two of you are among the better raiders and yet also the nicer people i met during my time in WoW, which is quite a while really.
With one being gone for a month now, I had really only one person left that i felt could become a friend of mine, and this is where things went sour. Bojjechan decided to leave the guild because of the slower pace of progress we had managed to attain during the upper echelons of HFC HC, and he went to the Mythic progressing guild of his friends. Probably a good choice, because the man was a beast and he lifted, well maybe not us, but certainly the lower half of the raiders in our group, on his back more then once. Well I don't blame him, he was good and decided to push his experience and limits, as any good raiders should do in my opinion. I was there the evening he decided to leave, and i was convinced the way he handled things was correct, he was looking for officers to tell his story against and to say his goodbyes.
The result: He was rediculed, insulted, his alts were kicked without warning, the account he was online on was kicked while he was in the middle of a conversation, he was nothing short of humiliated by the people he helped to grow and progress. The reason: The asshole didn't leave a proper forum post about his departure, and he backstabbed the guild by leaving, after getting boosted, the noob.
I decided to disagree with common and popular opinions about him, and to defend him. the discussion that followed was the start of me doubting my own future in the guild, not because you guys told me you didn't want me in the guild, but because of my main problem with one regular member in specific and part of the officers: The way you treat your fellow raiders, be they guild members or PUGs.
I was, and forgive me for the change in tone this post will have from here on, astonished by the way you handled this case, and the conversations in the guild chat about people that were being brought in to help the raid from the outside. PUG a sucks, kick him, PUG b doesn't want to listen after a wipe, kick him etc. etc. I was also surprised by the way you officers asked guild members to leave if their performance was subpar, rather then trying to help them, although i sadly have to admit that i wasn't in any position to help them either, considering i know very little about the majority off classes. But I guess you know more about raidleading then i do, and if the only way to achieve progress is to temporarily remove the underperforming members, then I guess that is up to the raidleaders to decide.
As said, the thing i hated most about a part of the members in this guild was their ability, no even their apparent willingness to name and shame pugs and underperformers, every PUG that got kicked was bad, every PUG that left was even worse.
Now I will refrain from naming people because it is what i hated most about these people, but i have a hard time believing the people i clashed with don't know who i'm talking about, the only remainder is whether they actually believe they did somethign wrong or not, but it is not my aim here to make them feel bad, I think, I hope.
Leaves me at the raid tonight, for the last couple of weeks I decided to be less of a talkative person, I didn't like where the guild was going in terms of management and attitude, in my personal experience the guild went from let's have fun and try hard, to let's be tryhard, which was not what i originally joined for, but once again, it's not my guild, and as such the officers have the last say in the way everything is organized. Like pretty much every raid the last month, the attendance was weak, and we had to pug a bunch of raiders. There the fun started again, not two failed attempts in and the first PUG was removed, with the usual trashtalk in guildchat, and like a recent trend, I decided it was better to not get involved. Now i don't wan't to sound like an idiot making up excuses, but i had a pretty long day today, so I was tired and had to do my best to attend the raid in time. I guess I wasn't prepared for three people telling me I was underperforming, seemingly seperate, in the span of about an hour. sadly, I never knew how to handle unconstructive critisim very well and a long day doesn't make it that much better, as you'll probably understand, i can assume every one of you has had a day where they just didn't have the ability to cope with crap people throw at them, or maybe you never experienced that, I don't particularly think it's all that important here anyways.
Here is where I feel really bad about what I did and said, and I can understand the way people took that in the wrong way. I really couldn't get past the fact that you guys shame PUGs in guildchat, and it's nothing short of shaming, believe me, and then continued on to send me whispers about how I should step it up, please do have the respect to throw such things into guild chat or even raid chat, I, and I hope neither are most of you, am not a buthurt little kid, and if I am a liability or a weakness in the raiding team, just say so, ask me to step down, just don't give me a lame whisper saying: ur bad, be better. Or so I thought was the worst idea, untill someone called me out in guildchat, and I made the exact mistake i named earlier.
He decided to ask me if i knew what i did wrong, nothing more than that. I, tired as i was, made a dumb joke about how i knew nothing anymore, and it was wrongly interpreted by the officers as me not trying anymore, although i was very vague in that regard. When i followed it up with some half assed joke after being the asked the same question again, which in my opinion was a rather dumb question, i got rather frustrated, wasn't it obvious I didn't know what I did wrong? I hadn't been to the previous two Mannoroth attempts, one because of a appointment, one because my internet decided to die out on me, and I had little to no idea about what you guys had discussed before me arriving at Mannoroth. I got under the impression I had a decent idea of what you guys wanted and how to play it out, apparently I was wrong.
An officer decided to kick me out of the raid, under i believe the same misconceptions I described earlier, and some pretty hatefull and let's be honest immature words fell. He had enough of my wanker attitude, I never showed any dedication and if I wasn't trying anyways, I cold and should just fuck off, that's what I understood of it at least. Well, I decided to tell him i disagreed, I was connected to what I felt was important for the health of the guild. I was told that my attitude was bad and that I never showed any kind of good attitude, which I pointed towards me disagreeing with the officers about earlier mentioned cases. When the discussion continued and the before mentioned regular member decided to continue his wellrounded criticism, voiced as, u have a shitty attitude, u don't even try, u come here and fail, You are just plain bad, I had about enough. Just before that the officers had told me that they don't agree with my way of addressing my problem with the guild. I say what I think in guildchat, they say what they think in guildchat, the main difference seems to be it's about people that can't defend themselves, either that or it's just not about them when they Name and Shame someone. I told the person that called me bad, that he was doing the exact same thing i was supposedly doing wrong, namely saying stuff I think out loud in guild chat, to which his simple response was: don't care, which ofcourse was ignored by the officers. I decided that i had my fill, I told him and the officers that they could do stuff their way, and that I didn't want anything to do with it, to which the final response was: good.
Long story short, I realize this was a bit of a rattle, maybe partially written to blow of some steam for a day with a bad ending. Forgive me my hastily written and unchecked english, I hope you can read this post without having any hard feelings, but above all I hope you can all read this and check with yourslef whether you have anything to improve on, and whether everyone is still on the same page as to what this guild i set out to achieve, it might just be me, but didn't enjoy a single raid over the last couple weeks. Naming and shaming, calling people names, being unable to accept criticism and reacting in the heat of the moment without thinking about what someone could have meant, nor considering the fact someone else might have a rough day or a bad mood, are all relatively solvable personal flaws, they are the flaws of someone who is growing up. Growing up means learning how to voice your opinion, being an adult means you learned not only how to voice your opinion, but also understanding how it gets across to others. I think it's a lesson both parties here still have to learn.
Wycorena, Bojjechan, thanks for the blast, it was fun while it lasted.
I'm done for now, what you do with this post, whether you delete it, write it in your diary or whatever else it is you like doing, is up to you, but above all I hope you keep having fun in the game, don't get pressure to perform, the pressure people put on you, useless dps meters or anythign really get in the way of the reason you have for playing the game, I lost my reason, I hope you can maintain yours.
Good luck and have fun,
A.
